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Franchise: May 13, 2008 - 10:50 PM PST
faeriel Said:
Franchise Said:
lorcas Said:
In response to trenchael:



The first post was a generalization. (posted by flowrktty)
The second post was an example of the generalization perhaps being flawed (posted by Lorcas)
The third post supported the first post (posted by trenacheal)
The fourth post explored the impact of the generalization, and a refutation. (posted by Lorcas)
The fifth and sixth post were clarification questions that may have led to a misunderstanding.


You gave me a simple question, i responded with a simple answer. I believe that was a fair transaction. That being said, i did not intend to say that you "were harmful or ignorant".
It can be inferred reasonably that you arrived in defense of the notion that "women like Jerks" since you posted directly after my second post. So, you were defending a generality, on some level you agreed and at this point in the post, continued to perpetuate this generality. That being said, the last portion of my post was directed at the notion of "women being attracted to jerks". The notion of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant, in and of itself. This was not a personal attack or an assessment of your character.

I have not read your other post, I was only reading responses directed towards me.

Also, I think that you make a fair judgment about men and women perhaps not realizing they are in a unhealthy relationship.
I think that you have clarified what your intent was.

My only quibble was that it was not clear that it was both women and men, rather it was uniquely women who were being duped.

I do stand by my first assessment that generalities are harmful and ignorant. There needs to be a movement of desublimation for reclaiming and redefining the feminine experience independent of "generalities" and "rules".

good discussion.





This idea of feminine independence is not new...


LOL! That's right! haha...

Well, from some of my personal experience, I can say I definately have been attracted to jerks. Big ones. Big Jerks. And the thing about big jerks is that when they don't like you they are big jerks! But when they do.... oh boy, it's a lot of fun for a little while, but then it's over as fast as it started. In my experience the jerks find some other girl and move on a lot quicker that the nice guys. Now I am with a nice guy who can be a jerk sometimes. But then again, I can be a jerk sometimes too!


It's a vicious cycle!!! I think you'd experience the same thing if you were with me. Just putting it out there! I can be sarcastic and crass and at the same time nice and sweet

Stay tuned for a writing work entitled "Ode to a Karoake Jockey" LOL!
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faeriel: May 13, 2008 - 07:03 PM PST
Franchise Said:
lorcas Said:
In response to trenchael:



The first post was a generalization. (posted by flowrktty)
The second post was an example of the generalization perhaps being flawed (posted by Lorcas)
The third post supported the first post (posted by trenacheal)
The fourth post explored the impact of the generalization, and a refutation. (posted by Lorcas)
The fifth and sixth post were clarification questions that may have led to a misunderstanding.


You gave me a simple question, i responded with a simple answer. I believe that was a fair transaction. That being said, i did not intend to say that you "were harmful or ignorant".
It can be inferred reasonably that you arrived in defense of the notion that "women like Jerks" since you posted directly after my second post. So, you were defending a generality, on some level you agreed and at this point in the post, continued to perpetuate this generality. That being said, the last portion of my post was directed at the notion of "women being attracted to jerks". The notion of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant, in and of itself. This was not a personal attack or an assessment of your character.

I have not read your other post, I was only reading responses directed towards me.

Also, I think that you make a fair judgment about men and women perhaps not realizing they are in a unhealthy relationship.
I think that you have clarified what your intent was.

My only quibble was that it was not clear that it was both women and men, rather it was uniquely women who were being duped.

I do stand by my first assessment that generalities are harmful and ignorant. There needs to be a movement of desublimation for reclaiming and redefining the feminine experience independent of "generalities" and "rules".

good discussion.





This idea of feminine independence is not new...


LOL! That's right! haha...

Well, from some of my personal experience, I can say I definately have been attracted to jerks. Big ones. Big Jerks. And the thing about big jerks is that when they don't like you they are big jerks! But when they do.... oh boy, it's a lot of fun for a little while, but then it's over as fast as it started. In my experience the jerks find some other girl and move on a lot quicker that the nice guys. Now I am with a nice guy who can be a jerk sometimes. But then again, I can be a jerk sometimes too!
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 01:51 PM PST
lorcas Said:
In response to trenchael:



The first post was a generalization. (posted by flowrktty)
The second post was an example of the generalization perhaps being flawed (posted by Lorcas)
The third post supported the first post (posted by trenacheal)
The fourth post explored the impact of the generalization, and a refutation. (posted by Lorcas)
The fifth and sixth post were clarification questions that may have led to a misunderstanding.


You gave me a simple question, i responded with a simple answer. I believe that was a fair transaction. That being said, i did not intend to say that you "were harmful or ignorant".
It can be inferred reasonably that you arrived in defense of the notion that "women like Jerks" since you posted directly after my second post. So, you were defending a generality, on some level you agreed and at this point in the post, continued to perpetuate this generality. That being said, the last portion of my post was directed at the notion of "women being attracted to jerks". The notion of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant, in and of itself. This was not a personal attack or an assessment of your character.

I have not read your other post, I was only reading responses directed towards me.

Also, I think that you make a fair judgment about men and women perhaps not realizing they are in a unhealthy relationship.
I think that you have clarified what your intent was.

My only quibble was that it was not clear that it was both women and men, rather it was uniquely women who were being duped.

I do stand by my first assessment that generalities are harmful and ignorant. There needs to be a movement of desublimation for reclaiming and redefining the feminine experience independent of "generalities" and "rules".

good discussion.





This idea of feminine independence is not new...
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lorcas: May 12, 2008 - 01:19 PM PST In response to trenchael:



The first post was a generalization. (posted by flowrktty)
The second post was an example of the generalization perhaps being flawed (posted by Lorcas)
The third post supported the first post (posted by trenacheal)
The fourth post explored the impact of the generalization, and a refutation. (posted by Lorcas)
The fifth and sixth post were clarification questions that may have led to a misunderstanding.


You gave me a simple question, i responded with a simple answer. I believe that was a fair transaction. That being said, i did not intend to say that you "were harmful or ignorant".
It can be inferred reasonably that you arrived in defense of the notion that "women like Jerks" since you posted directly after my second post. So, you were defending a generality, on some level you agreed and at this point in the post, continued to perpetuate this generality. That being said, the last portion of my post was directed at the notion of "women being attracted to jerks". The notion of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant, in and of itself. This was not a personal attack or an assessment of your character.

I have not read your other post, I was only reading responses directed towards me.

Also, I think that you make a fair judgment about men and women perhaps not realizing they are in a unhealthy relationship.
I think that you have clarified what your intent was.

My only quibble was that it was not clear that it was both women and men, rather it was uniquely women who were being duped.

I do stand by my first assessment that generalities are harmful and ignorant. There needs to be a movement of desublimation for reclaiming and redefining the feminine experience independent of "generalities" and "rules".

good discussion.



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Tobi: May 12, 2008 - 01:08 PM PST
mistercool Said:
Wordlings Said:
Man, that thing mistercool posted didn't say one thing about whether or not the meek will inherit hot ass. What a rip!

I thought that went without saying.


LOL! and thanks MC for the link it was awesome.
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 11:06 AM PST
sixysummat Said:
mistercool Said:
When I first found this site it didn't take long to figure out pretty much everyone here is nice. That's the main reason I joined and why I'm still here.

I haven't always been a nice guy but I am now and wouldn't change for the world. Since I decided to be nicer to people (and myself) I'm a lot more confident, a lot less afraid and feel really good ... about me.

Anyone, male or female, that's intentionally or unintentionally acting like a jerk, will eventually learn (the hard way) that there's a better way to get along with people and get what you want.

And for all the shy people out there – more power to ya. Coming from someone who's been there - I'd much rather be shy than arrogant.

Whether you're religious or not, this is well worth reading. You might even wanna add it to your favorites.


Thanks for that wonderful piece of reading, MC. You're among the first in my book. There is an interesting tradition in African American Catholic parishes. When they are partaking the Eucharist, the last rows begin & receive first. Of course, the exact opposite is the way it is done in most parishes. I think it's lovely.


Do you happen to be Catholic Sixy?
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 11:06 AM PST
mistercool Said:
When I first found this site it didn't take long to figure out pretty much everyone here is nice. That's the main reason I joined and why I'm still here.

I haven't always been a nice guy but I am now and wouldn't change for the world. Since I decided to be nicer to people (and myself) I'm a lot more confident, a lot less afraid and feel really good ... about me.

Anyone, male or female, that's intentionally or unintentionally acting like a jerk, will eventually learn (the hard way) that there's a better way to get along with people and get what you want.

And for all the shy people out there – more power to ya. Coming from someone who's been there - I'd much rather be shy than arrogant.

Whether you're religious or not, this is well worth reading. You might even wanna add it to your favorites.


A very poignant post for this thread. Senor Coolio strikes gold again.
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mistercool: May 12, 2008 - 10:52 AM PST
sixysummat Said:
Thanks for that wonderful piece of reading, MC. You're among the first in my book.

... as you are in mine.
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mistercool: May 12, 2008 - 10:48 AM PST
Wordlings Said:
Man, that thing mistercool posted didn't say one thing about whether or not the meek will inherit hot ass. What a rip!

I thought that went without saying.


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Wordlings: May 12, 2008 - 10:41 AM PST Man, that thing mistercool posted didn't say one thing about whether or not the meek will inherit hot ass. What a rip!
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sixysummat: May 12, 2008 - 10:30 AM PST
mistercool Said:
When I first found this site it didn't take long to figure out pretty much everyone here is nice. That's the main reason I joined and why I'm still here.

I haven't always been a nice guy but I am now and wouldn't change for the world. Since I decided to be nicer to people (and myself) I'm a lot more confident, a lot less afraid and feel really good ... about me.

Anyone, male or female, that's intentionally or unintentionally acting like a jerk, will eventually learn (the hard way) that there's a better way to get along with people and get what you want.

And for all the shy people out there – more power to ya. Coming from someone who's been there - I'd much rather be shy than arrogant.

Whether you're religious or not, this is well worth reading. You might even wanna add it to your favorites.


Thanks for that wonderful piece of reading, MC. You're among the first in my book. There is an interesting tradition in African American Catholic parishes. When they are partaking the Eucharist, the last rows begin & receive first. Of course, the exact opposite is the way it is done in most parishes. I think it's lovely.
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flowrktty: May 12, 2008 - 10:19 AM PST
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


I am a woman, I do not like jerks.



I'm not saying you like jerks - obviously not all women go for them. But I have known plenty of women who dated jerks who didn't think they were jerks at the time. They would always say things like, "You don't know him like i do," or "He's just has a tough exterior." So, you won't find many women admit that they like jerks, because they don't think they are jerks... but they are.





i was writing a generality. of course there will be an exception to every rule. i dont think anyone is saying that every woman will only like and date jerks, but that is the general rule.

i do agree that self esteem plays a role in this trend. the higher the ranking the lower the self esteem and therefore the more likely to date an a-hole. like i said, tom pretty much has it right on this one.








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mistercool: May 12, 2008 - 10:12 AM PST When I first found this site it didn't take long to figure out pretty much everyone here is nice. That's the main reason I joined and why I'm still here.

I haven't always been a nice guy but I am now and wouldn't change for the world. Since I decided to be nicer to people (and myself) I'm a lot more confident, a lot less afraid and feel really good ... about me.

Anyone, male or female, that's intentionally or unintentionally acting like a jerk, will eventually learn (the hard way) that there's a better way to get along with people and get what you want.

And for all the shy people out there – more power to ya. Coming from someone who's been there - I'd much rather be shy than arrogant.

Whether you're religious or not, this is well worth reading. You might even wanna add it to your favorites.
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 08:51 AM PST
trenchael Said:
Franchise Said:
Wordlings Said:
Heh, lighten up, trench baby -- I'm pretty sure she only meant that first paragraph of her response to apply specifically to you, the rest applying to the question under discussion.

That said, you did look like you were patronizing her, because where she said she didn't date jerks, you replied with the insinuation that she just didn't realize they were jerks and that she didn't know what she was talking about because she was like those chicks you know. So...you might wanna check yourself.


Chickity check yourself before you wreck yourself. LOL! I though Trench did a mighty fine job defending his viewpoint. Although he managed to dig himself into another trench :P


Thanks. I was feeling like I was on an island.


"No man is an island." - John Donne (1572-1631)

Buddha nature surrounds even the most ancient of philosophers.
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trenchael: May 12, 2008 - 08:48 AM PST
Franchise Said:
Wordlings Said:
Heh, lighten up, trench baby -- I'm pretty sure she only meant that first paragraph of her response to apply specifically to you, the rest applying to the question under discussion.

That said, you did look like you were patronizing her, because where she said she didn't date jerks, you replied with the insinuation that she just didn't realize they were jerks and that she didn't know what she was talking about because she was like those chicks you know. So...you might wanna check yourself.


Chickity check yourself before you wreck yourself. LOL! I though Trench did a mighty fine job defending his viewpoint. Although he managed to dig himself into another trench :P


Thanks. I was feeling like I was on an island.
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 08:29 AM PST
Wordlings Said:
Heh, lighten up, trench baby -- I'm pretty sure she only meant that first paragraph of her response to apply specifically to you, the rest applying to the question under discussion.

That said, you did look like you were patronizing her, because where she said she didn't date jerks, you replied with the insinuation that she just didn't realize they were jerks and that she didn't know what she was talking about because she was like those chicks you know. So...you might wanna check yourself.


Chickity check yourself before you wreck yourself. LOL! I though Trench did a mighty fine job defending his viewpoint. Although he managed to dig himself into another trench :P
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Wordlings: May 12, 2008 - 07:14 AM PST Heh, lighten up, trench baby -- I'm pretty sure she only meant that first paragraph of her response to apply specifically to you, the rest applying to the question under discussion.

That said, you did look like you were patronizing her, because where she said she didn't date jerks, you replied with the insinuation that she just didn't realize they were jerks and that she didn't know what she was talking about because she was like those chicks you know. So...you might wanna check yourself.
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trenchael: May 12, 2008 - 05:49 AM PST
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


I am a woman, I do not like jerks.



I'm not saying you like jerks - obviously not all women go for them. But I have known plenty of women who dated jerks who didn't think they were jerks at the time. They would always say things like, "You don't know him like i do," or "He's just has a tough exterior." So, you won't find many women admit that they like jerks, because they don't think they are jerks... but they are.





lol. So I may be dating jerks, just completely unaware of it. that's akin to patting my on the head and saying something like, "well, you just didn't know."

Generalizations rely on the perpetuation of stereotypes.

I know plenty of strong uber-aware women who are in good healthy relationships.

If a person chooses to be in an unhealthy relationship, whether realizing it or not, it is their choice. And I don't think it has anything to do with gender. And to unwittingly continue to perpetuation this idea of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant.


Are you directing this post at me?


yes.


Oh good. I didn't know if you were saying that people in abusive relationships unwittingly perpetuate the stereotype and calling them "harmful and ignorant" or if if you were saying I am "harmful and ignorant." Your judgement of me is obviously spot-on, and above reproach - but if I may defend myself for one moment...

I don't see how i am perpetuating anything, wittingly or unwittingly. In this thread, I have not made a blanket statement about all women (or all men, or all dogs or all cats). I have limited it to "some," or to ones that I know. Please show me where I stereotyped anyone.

Even in the post I was responding to you - my first sentence was "I'm not saying you date jerks - obviously not all women go for them." It just spurred a thought in me that a lot of people don't think they date jerks. They think the person they date is wonderful an make excuses for abusive behavior. I don't think people go out thinking "I'm going to go find me an asshole to date."

And that goes both ways too. Men get into relationships with someone who takes advantage of them, or is verbally abusive, but they don't realize it when they are in the moment. It happened to me. I even made reference to both genders entering into bad relationships in a previous post.

If you still think that your assessment of me is fair, then fine. I, obviously, think it is not.
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princess_star: May 12, 2008 - 04:35 AM PST
grasshopper Said:
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


I am a woman, I do not like jerks.



I'm not saying you like jerks - obviously not all women go for them. But I have known plenty of women who dated jerks who didn't think they were jerks at the time. They would always say things like, "You don't know him like i do," or "He's just has a tough exterior." So, you won't find many women admit that they like jerks, because they don't think they are jerks... but they are.





lol. So I may be dating jerks, just completely unaware of it. that's akin to patting my on the head and saying something like, "well, you just didn't know."

Generalizations rely on the perpetuation of stereotypes.

I know plenty of strong uber-aware women who are in good healthy relationships.

If a person chooses to be in an unhealthy relationship, whether realizing it or not, it is their choice. And I don't think it has anything to do with gender. And to unwittingly continue to perpetuation this idea of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant.


Are you directing this post at me?


yes.


lorcas, you make me smile every time.


lol why???

hmm... come to think of it you make me laugh all the time when you try to comment on what lola posts
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 12:13 AM PST
Alexy Said:
Wordlings Said:
Men who consider themselves "nice guys" are usually indulgent wusses. They'll do whatever the girl wants and be whomever she wants them to be because they have low self-esteem and are filled with fear.


Wordlings hit this one on the head.


Nice guys in savage clothing wins in the end. I love where this thread has been heading. Good work people...keep it up!
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 12:11 AM PST
Wordlings Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


Women with poor self-esteem like jerks because they feel they should be treated like shit, and jerks do that.

What quality women like are men who have qualities typically associated with jerks, but used as tools toward positive ends. Stuff like arrogance and boldness and confidence and strength.

Men who consider themselves "nice guys" are usually indulgent wusses. They'll do whatever the girl wants and be whomever she wants them to be because they have low self-esteem and are filled with fear.

Which kind of explains the whole problem -- the low self-esteem boys like the girls who are like them, but the low self-esteem girls like the jerks. Somewhere there's a "circle jerk" in all of this, but I am not sure where.


I have since begun to live without fear or regrets, because life's thread is not as long as this one will be
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Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 12:09 AM PST
lorcas Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


I am a woman, I do not like jerks.



If you've heard the poison this man feeds impressionable chauvinistic minds, you'd understand
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grasshopper: May 11, 2008 - 07:17 PM PST
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
trenchael Said:
lorcas Said:
flowrktty Said:
women like jerks. its the leykis 101 at work, sad but true


I am a woman, I do not like jerks.



I'm not saying you like jerks - obviously not all women go for them. But I have known plenty of women who dated jerks who didn't think they were jerks at the time. They would always say things like, "You don't know him like i do," or "He's just has a tough exterior." So, you won't find many women admit that they like jerks, because they don't think they are jerks... but they are.





lol. So I may be dating jerks, just completely unaware of it. that's akin to patting my on the head and saying something like, "well, you just didn't know."

Generalizations rely on the perpetuation of stereotypes.

I know plenty of strong uber-aware women who are in good healthy relationships.

If a person chooses to be in an unhealthy relationship, whether realizing it or not, it is their choice. And I don't think it has anything to do with gender. And to unwittingly continue to perpetuation this idea of "women being attracted to jerks" is harmful and ignorant.


Are you directing this post at me?


yes.


lorcas, you make me smile every time.
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