qLife : Mind : If for men, what for women

vocalillusion: May 13, 2008 - 08:20 AM PST Well, as for the video, I guess you wouldn't understand if you don't listen to hip hop.
Because usually in hip hop/rap in the most mainstream form, you don't talk about your feelings.
It's about the money, and women and so on. You pointed that out. The video was representing how there are musicians in any genre, that break the mold. To be honest I'm not sure if I could classify any music as masculine or feminine, because for every "masculine" like band there is a band thats more feminine. And like what determines whether a band is masculine or feminine would come up to your own personal definition of these terms.

So to answer your initial question, I really don't know, I think it just depends. Alot of girls I know listen to Rap/R&B but I wouldn't call it feminine music, and alot of girls I know listen to Acoustic Rock, Jack Johnson for example, but I wouldn't call that feminine music either. I think that the ultimate feminine music would be a female artist that seems to not conform to the stereotypes of her genre.

jha: May 13, 2008 - 06:50 AM PST

I was just about to ask the same question. And Atmosphere is pretty hot, they've got a lyric that goes something like this "Bought my brain a cane, so I wouldn't stuck up in my f*** ups."

toru: May 13, 2008 - 02:30 AM PST


That is a good question, but I don't think its the one I'm asking. I do that already. I know what I think of feminity and always look for music that represents my idealized version of such- and one tht wouldn't overtly sexualize women w/o counterbalancing. But that's not what I'm talking about here. What I'm asking is, what are pop culture's representations of women, and what genre's could be associated with it? Or also, is there a genre in popular culture which provides a framework for women and men, from a feminized stand point?

For example in the two posted above, hip-hop and rock, both of these take popularized forms and in those forms- masculinity is represented in a specific way. So, that when new bands or artists make albums they conform to a standard and repeat themes within their lyrics. You could argue that in specific hip-hop albums status is represented through money, street smarts and ability to get hot girls. And this is understanding of status provides a theme for other hip-hop artists to react to. And when women get involved- say Mariah or Beyonce- they play a role, and often sing songs which uphold these versions of status, and embrace being a woman as represented by the idealizations of some women in these songs (you could definately counter this, and I hope you will!) or you could look at Lil Kim and although her work is varied there are examples where she takes this idea of status and conforms to some norms while challenging its inherent sexuality- yet consistiently upholding the idea of dominance.

So, what I'm asking, is where does a predominately feminine genre emerge that create standards for men also, or do these genres exist, and if it does, how is feminity represented?- Or you know, what ever other questions you want to ask and talk about.

BTW= this is really pitiful to admit, but I don't listen to much hip=hop and so when I do- I don't usually catch much of what is said (so much is said in a short period of time!!) and have to refer to lyrics, and so I don't feel like I can comment on the youtube vid you posted. It seems like he's talking about the average status stuff- but I can't really tell because either its not a good copy, or too, the images really confuse me when compared w/ the lyrics. So, are the lyrics available?

vocalillusion: May 12, 2008 - 10:54 PM PST

Here's an Example..See what you think.

toru: May 12, 2008 - 11:47 AM PST

I don't know, you tell me! That's what I'm trying to decide, in mainstream culture- what's women's domain? I have a tendency to agree with those that say pop- but there are obviously male pop stars. I don't listen to it enough to make generalization- r there more female pop stars than men? And pop is very broad and can include stuff from other genres.

When the lilth fair stuff was mentioned- I would be relucntant to label it as a genre within itself- maybe progressive alterntive rock? And if we called it that, then I'd look at the whole of the cateogry and maybe this is where it is. because progressive alt rock really does ask for a different view of women. Even the men assume a different posture. Weezer's boys arent the same type of male as the boys of backstreet or justin. So maybe this is where it is- you could argue that for a while progressive alt rock did have a very strong female voice and leaders, and that the male muscians from this genre took an entirely different view of masculinity.

maybe we've stumbled on somthing here.

But hmm. is pop feminine?

Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 11:14 AM PST

Does this embody femininity?

flowrktty: May 12, 2008 - 10:27 AM PST anything from lilith fair, lesbian rock, most pop, and a lot of country music. some that stand out are fiona apple, bjork, sarah mclachlan, tori amos. i try to stay away from all of it personally

Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 08:48 AM PST

Although I was never officially a frat boy, I partied with them Sigma Chi Do or Die like Semper Fi so kiss my thigh LOL! And I was a pretty studios kid for a slacker. Although I did always study at the last minute and pull of As with major cram sessions.

Anyways, I'm really enjoying this thread and appreciate the keen insights Toru has put out here for us to discern, scrutinize, politely criticize, but more so conceptualize the stereotypes portrayed by machishmo music whether it be rock, rap, punk, or pop. I write pop rock, and if you may humor me Toru and please give me your thoughts on the masculinity or femininity that is perused by my music I'd greatly appreciate it. Just click on MY WORKS.

Wordlings: May 12, 2008 - 08:35 AM PST Pop is dominated by chicks. Little dog divas or freaky head-shavers. That's probably the feminine image we're exporting.

toru: May 12, 2008 - 07:41 AM PST

Although, I wouldn't put it in stone, I think you could make the argument that there are consistient themes running through certain genre's in rock and rap, for example- 80's/early 90's metal (sex, drugs, guitars)and someone help me out here on the rap side- but maybe mid 90-early 00 for hiphop that is focused on status, money and 'hos'.

What I was thinking about was that these themes not only pentrate these genres but our culture, and especially because our music and movies are exported throughout the world they come reflect American culture in a way that we may not realize- or think about. So, while in the US we think nothing of listening to Ludacris at a party, to an Indian man who meets a black American for the first time in India- he may have a hyper masculine perception of black americans, same goes for the way American women are portrayted as sex symbols, or frat boys portrayed as poor students.

And in thinking of this- I wondered, where are the women? and what are the values of a female dominant genre? I could think of sub-cultures, like riot grrl rock, or the ballad singers like Celine, but really not much more. Women like Mariah Carey and Janet Jackson- seem to feed off the same sterotypes portryed through hip-hop, and rarities like India Arie and sometimes Pink break through the mold. But I couldn't think of a genre where women in mainstream culture (mtv rotation) represent values other than those perpetuated by extremes in rock and rap. I couldn't find a set of women- who in a consitient way fit this bill, I know I'm totally limited in my pop culture references, maybe you could provide insight?

trenchael: May 12, 2008 - 07:17 AM PST I'm not entirely sure that rock and rap represent masculinity. I mean, I think it has to do with the artist. I wouldn't say female rappers' songs represent masculinity.

Seeing as song writers write what they know, i would then think that the writer/artist represent each masculine and feminine, respectively.

maybe I don't understand the question entirely.

Franchise: May 12, 2008 - 12:32 AM PST Sure...strong enough for a man, but made for a woman

lilsey: May 11, 2008 - 10:43 PM PST maybe some sara barrillies, or colbie calait? (can't spell for crap sorry!)

but I tend to like The Pierces.

peacelovegreen: May 11, 2008 - 10:27 PM PST people would prlly say oh like lillith (sp) fair stuff. but i listen to a lot of sheryl crow, feist, regina spektor, jenny lewis, katy perry, sia, theres a lot of music out there representing feminity. and about how we feel.

toru: May 11, 2008 - 06:51 PM PST So, I was thinking about song lyrics and such and a friend said that rock and rap are representations of masculinty. But what about reprenstations of feminity? If mainstream rock and rap are said to be idealizations of masculine fantasys- rock- drugs, sex and stardom, and rap- violence, status, and riches, what type of mainstream music represents our culture's idealizations of feminity?